The Labrador border post
It is one of the oldest tricks in the Newfoundland nationalist jingo political playbook:
The Quebec Card.
Whenever you want to engage in some jingoistic sabre-rattling, and are in need of an enemy, an other on which to focus your two-minute hate, just play the Quebec Card.
The ploy has been around for decades.
Shortly before he dramatically collapsed, National Convention delegate, and staunch anti-Confederate Ken Brown, fustigated:
Canada wants Labrador, and she wants Newfoundland. Perhaps the Dominion government is not so interested, or the people at Ottawa, but the Quebec government is, and wants Newfoundland, and thinks today, Mr Chairman, that Labrador should never have been ceded to Newfoundland. [National Convention debates, October 30, 1946]Or how about that great hero to anti-Confederates past and separatists present, Peter Cashin; he who once offered to sell Labrador:
Peter Cashin, former finance minister and leading proponent of self-rule for Newfoundland, declared in a broadcast Saturday that Canada wants Newfoundland to enter the confederation because the province of Quebec wanted Labrador. [Reuters, August 11, 1947]Nor was the great anti-Confederate hero above playing the linguistic bigotry card:
Either the people wouild have to find additional revenue in the form of direct taxation, or a deal would have to be made, possible forced upon us, whereby the 110,000 square miles of our Labrador possession would be mortgaged or taken over on a rental basis by the Canadian federal government or by the French Province of Quebec. [National Convention debates, January 8, 1948]How about this for a bold prediction, again from the great anti-French bigot Cashin?
My object is to simply impress on delegates the hidden significance of this latest move on the part of the premier of French Canada [Duplessis, who was agitating against the Labrador boundary in the press at the time] and to ask fellow delegates to give the matter their serious consideration. Vigilance, it is said, is the price of safety. Let that then be our watchword... You or I may not be here, but you will find if we go into confederation with Canada, that within five years, Labrador will be taken from Newfoundland. [National Convention Debates, December 1, 1947]Much closer to the mark, on the predictions front, was this one from the Member for Labrador, Rev. Lester Burry:
I feel that we might have more reason to be afraid of losing our Labrador territory not so much from anyone outside taking a hold of it, not so much that Quebec will come and take it from us but perhaps their might be some weakness within our own selves, or in our governments of the future which might succumb to offers made for Labrador and we might lose it in that way. [National Convention Debates, January 13, 1948]Despite being entrenched even more firmly into law with Confederation than it even had been before, the Quebec bogeyman made a wide target for many years after 1949.
Opposition leader James J. Greene (PC, St. John's East) said it was urgent that the [Labrador] border be determined as soon as possible. He urged the Liberal Government to keep in mind the importance of every square inch of Labrador. [Canadian Press, January 25, 1962]Or
"It must make a man's blood boil," Mr. Smallwood said, "when he sees, on countless occasions, our great subcontinent or rich and valuable wealth described as part of the 'New Quebec'." He said the reason for the bill was that "we need the world to know." Opposition leader James Greene interjected: "We want one man in Quebec to know". "And that man in Quebec will make no difference," Mr. Smallwood replid. " All he can do is talk. He can do nothing about it." The bill would officially change the name of the province to Newfoundland and Labrador. [Canadian Press, May 16, 1964. The "one man" was then Quebec Resources Minister, René Lévesque.]And
Newfoundlanders fear they may lose Labrador to Quebec through quiet infiltration, the Royal Commission on Bilingualism and Biculturalism was told [in St. John's] last night. Some speakers at a general meeting said French Canadians may form up to 70 per cent of the Labrador population in a few years and either seek union with Quebec or status as the 11th province of Canada. [Canadian Press, June 9, 1964]As recently as 1999, Danny Williams' The Party was playing the Quebec Card for its own crass political purposes:
MR. OTTENHEIMER: My questions this afternoon are for the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs. I know he is on top of his job, so therefore he must be aware of a new glossy brochure called The Territory and a new map of Quebec, produced by the Government of Quebec, which includes a large part of southern Labrador in the Province of Quebec. Has the government protested this claim on our territory directly to Quebec and to the Government of Canada? I would ask the minister to table those letters protesting this act, along with the responses fromThe exchange was followed up with a suitably ominous press release:
both Quebec and Ottawa.
MR. NOEL: As the member well knows, the border between Quebec and Newfoundland is recognized by both provinces. We are content with the level of recognition that exits. Obviously from time to time some questions are raised by particular individuals. I am not specifically aware of the one that the member raises today. I will look into it and have a further answer for him in the near future.
MR. OTTENHEIMER: Following Question Period, I will e pleased to show both a map and brochure, one dated 1998, one dated 1999, both official government documents which make quite clearly the point that I raised earlier. It is a serious matter, I say, Mr. Minister. Quebec is building a legal case by openly claiming ownership of our territory. Every time our government fails to reject and protest Quebec’s claims, we build credibility for their case. Some court, somewhere, some time, may be influenced by the history of Quebec’s persistence in claiming our land and our failure to do anything about it.I ask the minister: Why are you so silent, as Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs? Why are you and why is this government afraid to stand up to the Province of Quebec?
MR. NOEL: Mr. Speaker, our Province has not been silent on this issue when it has been necessary to be vocal, but we do not feel that it is necessary to be very vocal at this particular time because we think that the border is recognized by all Canadians, by the Government of Quebec. I think the Premier of Quebec, just a few days ago, indicated that the border between his province and our Province is not in question. There is no serious disagreement about that border. From time to time the question is raised by various interests. From time to time we see certain publications that we would prefer would be printed other than they are; but, if we at any time feel that there is a serious issue that has to be dealt with, it will be dealt with. At the present
moment we are quite content with the recognition of the boundary that exists in the country.
MR. OTTENHEIMER: I say to the minister, he should really treat this issue much more seriously. Both of these official documents clearly speak for themselves. How can this government keep on doing business with a province that claims our territory, does not recognize our laws, has captured almost all of the benefits from our resources in Labrador, and uses its overwhelming influence in Ottawa to deny federal support for our rights and interests as a Province? How do you continue to do business in this manner, Mr. Minister?
MR. NOEL: Mr. Speaker, I think that recent events will indicate that the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador is doing excellent business with the Province of Quebec. We do not feel that there is any credible question raised about the border. I will look into the couple of specific instances that the member has cited to satisfy his mind and to make sure that he has a peaceful and happy Christmas.
Legal implications of ignoring Québec maps claiming Labrador territory
ST. JOHN'S, December 14, 1999 — Opposition Justice critic John Ottenheimer is urging the Tobin government to challenge the latest publications of the province of Québec whose maps claim the southern Labrador boundary is in dispute and part of Labrador may belong to Québec.
Ottenheimer said there is a danger in leaving such longstanding claims unchallenged, that a court at some future date may view the lack of response on Newfoundland and Labrador's part as a tacit recognition of the legitimacy of Québec's claim. At the very least, it could lend legitimacy to the notion that the boundaries of Labrador are in question rather than firmly resolved, he said. "By not protesting, we enhance their case," he said. "In a court of law, our silence on this issue can speak volumes."
Ottenheimer questioned Intergovernmental Affairs minister Walter Noel on the matter in the legislature Tuesday and expressed concern that the minister dismissed the issue as trivial.
"Both these official documents speak for themselves," Ottenheimer said. "It is unseemly of this province's government to carry on business-as-usual, without protest, with a government that has not only benefitted tremendously from our resources at our expense and denied us basic interprovincial rights that other provinces readily grant to one another, but has then had the audacity to claim our territory as its own."
And was carried in the Telegram the next day:
Quebec maps claiming Labrador cause for concern: Ottenheimer
Deana Stokes Sullivan
The Telegram
December 15, 1999
St. John's East MHA John Ottenheimer is urging the Newfoundland government to take a stand to stop Quebec from claiming part of Labrador in its promotional materials.
[...]
Showing the materials to reporters outside the legislature, Ottenheimer said the brochure printed in 1998 shows an ``obvious encroachment'' into Labrador, while the map dated 1999 includes a notation, "the 1927 boundary of the privy council (not definitive)."
"So it's a clear expression of what Quebec wants to espouse with respect to its territorial rights and I'm concerned, as a Newfoundlander," said Ottenheimer.
"This government has to take serious these sorts of presentations by a neighbouring province."
But as with so many other things, Danny and his The Party, in power, sing a different tune. As Chairman Dan told the Telegram, quoting him on May 28 of this year:
"I don't even understand why it's being raised ... the boundary is not an issue for us," Williams told The Telegram. "Every so often it will come up on a Quebec map showing the border being wrong, but from our perspective it's not a concern. [...] I wouldn't even raise it - by just raising it, with all due respect, even doing articles on it just acknowledges maybe there is an issue here, in the minds of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians."
And for once, you know, Chairman is right: All the maps in the world do not change the fact that the boundary was set in 1927 and entrenched in 1949; or that to change it would require very specific procedures, set out in the 1871 British North America Act and the 1982 Constitution Act, procedures which require the consent of the Newfoundland and Labrador legislature. To suggest, as the conspiracy theorists and francophobes do, that Quebec's silly map tricks have any legal bearing, is to concede an important point and to beg the question: "Does Quebec have a legal claim, or even a possibility of one, to Labrador or any part thereof?"
The answer, as both Danny Williams and John Ottenheimer, with their legal backgrounds, will well know, is that Quebec absolutely does not. And with his French language skills, Ottenheimer should also read, if he hasn't already, the report of Quebec's own Dorion Commission, which concluded that the Labrador boundary issue is a hopeless cause for Quebec. Even Jacques Parizeau and Lucien Bouchard have conceded, quietly, that this is the case. Chairman is legally and politically right to be dismissive. Taken together, s.3 of the 1871 British North America Act, Terms 2 and 3 of the Terms of Union, and s. 43 of the 1982 Constitution Act, mean that the Labrador boundary absolutely cannot be changed in any way, other than in the ways those statutes set out: with the express approval of the House of Assembly in St. John's.
And yet the question remains: why does this question keep coming up? why is it given so much more credence in Newfoundland than it has been given in Quebec these past two or three decades? why does it find such a receptive audience? and why, knowing what they know, did the provincial Tories of Danny Williams and John Ottenheimer make hay out of it in opposition?
The Labrador boundary "problem" is perhaps the best example of a danger that Chairman Dan faces. His brief political career, in opposition and in government, has consisted far too much and far too often of playing into and playing up the many myths which make up the political orthodoxy of the soft white underbelly of Newfoundland politics. His actions and rhetoric are deliberately and consistently geared towards ratcheting up the Newfoundland nationalism, creating enemies to hate, and casting doubt on Canada and the idea of Confederation.
"They" — you are to say it with a sneer — are out to get us. "They" are out to rip us off. "They" ≠ "us". They : bad. Us : good.
One day it's Quebec and its "claim" to Labrador. Next it's the federal government collecting all our resource revenues. Then the foreigners are taking all the fish. Short, snappy headlines, meant to generate negative, visceral, emotional reactions, facts be damned.
After all, who needs fact when you have unbridled outrage and the power of VOCM to act as its echo chamber?
So herein lies the danger: what happens when you play into those myths, and when you play them up, so early, so hard, and so often, that they get away from you? What happens when you are a large part of having the public believing things, rightly or, for the most part, wrongly, which may in fact hinder your own agenda or undermine your reputation as the Scrapper, the Great Negotiator, the Fighting Newfoundlander?
What happens if the Newfoundland nationalist myths grow larger, and become more entrenched, than you can control? What if they set the agenda, instead being part of yours? What happens when they paint you, your reputation, your government, your electorate, and your society, into a corner?
Loyola Hearn, who fustigated against those dem furriners for nine years in federal opposition, and years before in his provincial career, is starting to learn that lesson. One of his teachers will, without a doubt, be the Premier.
But Chairman Dan's turn to learn, whether he wants it to or not, will yet come.
The answer, as both Danny Williams and John Ottenheimer, with their legal backgrounds, will well know, is that Quebec absolutely does not. And with his French language skills, Ottenheimer should also read, if he hasn't already, the report of Quebec's own Dorion Commission, which concluded that the Labrador boundary issue is a hopeless cause for Quebec. Even Jacques Parizeau and Lucien Bouchard have conceded, quietly, that this is the case. Chairman is legally and politically right to be dismissive. Taken together, s.3 of the 1871 British North America Act, Terms 2 and 3 of the Terms of Union, and s. 43 of the 1982 Constitution Act, mean that the Labrador boundary absolutely cannot be changed in any way, other than in the ways those statutes set out: with the express approval of the House of Assembly in St. John's.
And yet the question remains: why does this question keep coming up? why is it given so much more credence in Newfoundland than it has been given in Quebec these past two or three decades? why does it find such a receptive audience? and why, knowing what they know, did the provincial Tories of Danny Williams and John Ottenheimer make hay out of it in opposition?
The Labrador boundary "problem" is perhaps the best example of a danger that Chairman Dan faces. His brief political career, in opposition and in government, has consisted far too much and far too often of playing into and playing up the many myths which make up the political orthodoxy of the soft white underbelly of Newfoundland politics. His actions and rhetoric are deliberately and consistently geared towards ratcheting up the Newfoundland nationalism, creating enemies to hate, and casting doubt on Canada and the idea of Confederation.
"They" — you are to say it with a sneer — are out to get us. "They" are out to rip us off. "They" ≠ "us". They : bad. Us : good.
One day it's Quebec and its "claim" to Labrador. Next it's the federal government collecting all our resource revenues. Then the foreigners are taking all the fish. Short, snappy headlines, meant to generate negative, visceral, emotional reactions, facts be damned.
After all, who needs fact when you have unbridled outrage and the power of VOCM to act as its echo chamber?
So herein lies the danger: what happens when you play into those myths, and when you play them up, so early, so hard, and so often, that they get away from you? What happens when you are a large part of having the public believing things, rightly or, for the most part, wrongly, which may in fact hinder your own agenda or undermine your reputation as the Scrapper, the Great Negotiator, the Fighting Newfoundlander?
What happens if the Newfoundland nationalist myths grow larger, and become more entrenched, than you can control? What if they set the agenda, instead being part of yours? What happens when they paint you, your reputation, your government, your electorate, and your society, into a corner?
Loyola Hearn, who fustigated against those dem furriners for nine years in federal opposition, and years before in his provincial career, is starting to learn that lesson. One of his teachers will, without a doubt, be the Premier.
But Chairman Dan's turn to learn, whether he wants it to or not, will yet come.
9 Comments:
You know what really terrifies me? The idea that some day NL'ers will cease to look for answers elsewhere and perhaps behave as citizens of a democracy. Wouldn't that be scary WJM if NL'ers decided to come up with the solutions for their own problems and sway the political game as opposed to having politicians sway them? Just imagine if NL'ers called the shots when it came to resources such as fish and oil. You know as well as I do that the federal government has nearly complete jurisdiction over these resources (just so you don't get confused I'm not talking about royalties I'm only talking about jurisdiction). By the way I left a question for you on freenewfoundlandlabrador and you never answered. We can try again though:
Why has Canada permitted the number of countries fishing on the Grand Banks, within Canada's territorial waters, to increase from 4 to 20 since Confederation?
Just imagine if NL'ers called the shots when it came to resources such as fish and oil.
NL calls 50% of the shots on oil, and controls much of the value of the fishing industry through jurisdiction over processing. The province, like all other provinces, also has full and unfettered jurisdiction over mines and minerals, forestry, and energy development.
You know as well as I do that the federal government has nearly complete jurisdiction over these resources (just so you don't get confused I'm not talking about royalties I'm only talking about jurisdiction).
Jurisdiction over the offshore rests in the jointly-managed offshore petroleum board. Indeed, Premiers going back at least as far as Wells, when they have talked about "joint management" of the fisheries to give the province greater control over resource management, have usually pointed to the CNOPB — now the CNLOPB — as the model to emulate.
Why has Canada permitted the number of countries fishing on the Grand Banks, within Canada's territorial waters, to increase from 4 to 20 since Confederation?
What is your source for those figures? I am not going to hazard a guess as to the answer until I know what the numbers are.
Canada's "territorial waters" only go out 12 miles (other than in the case of mare clausum and the maritime boundaries with St-Pierre and Miquelon and the U.S.).
Which countries fish within this 12-mile limit, other than Canada?
Joint management isn't much better as anyone can plainly see with Harper's refusal to aid NL in making fallow field legislation. Does it make sense to you that Harper would refuse to respond to your favourite NL politician, Mr. Williams? Does it make sense that he would refuse to help NL get the most from its oil resources? Who does he work for? It's absurd that he can get on with "we can't interfere with business" bullshit like that. Sorry but I can't justify 19th C. laissez faire style economics.
Jurisdiction over processing doesn't help much if the fish has been caught by Russian trawlers and is being processed at sea or in St. Petersburg, or wherever but NL for that matter. Processing means next to nothing as the jurisdiction of NL. The province is constantly fighting a running battle with producers that want to ship out to China and it's a waste of scarce resources - the rule should be you catch the fish here you process them here.
As for the fishery question check this out: Canada's 200-mile limit: An area extending 200 nautical miles seaward from Canada's coastlines, which are under Canada's sovereign rights for the purposes of exploring and exploiting marine resources. Also known as Canada's Exclusive Economic Zone. - http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/overfishing-surpeche/k_lexicon_e.htm. You can be a stickler for precise terms all you want but you know what I'm referring to - the 200 mile limit, the EEZ etc. Why on earth would Canada have ever allowed anyone to fish our waters? It's not just the nose and tail where they're at. NL certainly hasn't benefitted from having foreign countries out on the Grand Banks so who has? I suppose allowing those countries to fish one species while loading up on bycatch is all just a benevolent gesture on our fine countries part.
As for silly Newfoundland Nationalists you don't need to worry about them too much. The reality is that Canada is a dysfunctional nation that neglects and abuses First Nations, French-Canadians (at least for most of the countries history), and rural people. Your beloved confederation is gonna need serious overhaul if it is going to survive and actually live up to the rosy picture it paints of itself. If not from Quebec or Newfoundland and Labrador the pressure will simply rise from all corners and things ARE going to change. In the meantime enjoy the good life in Ottawa my friend.
Joint management isn't much better as anyone can plainly see with Harper's refusal to aid NL in making fallow field legislation.
Welcome to "joint management". Just what Danny asked for.
If he wants SOLE management, he should call a referendum on separation or at very least initiate the constitutional amending process.
Does it make sense to you that Harper would refuse to respond to your favourite NL politician, Mr. Williams?
Did Harper "refuse" to respond, or are you swallowing Danny's propaganda?
Does it make sense that he would refuse to help NL get the most from its oil resources?
How does "fallow field" do this?
Jurisdiction over processing doesn't help much if the fish has been caught by Russian trawlers and is being processed at sea or in St. Petersburg, or wherever but NL for that matter.
What do Russians fish inside 200 miles that NLers would rather be fishing?
Processing means next to nothing as the jurisdiction of NL. The province is constantly fighting a running battle with producers that want to ship out to China and it's a waste of scarce resources - the rule should be you catch the fish here you process them here.
You think?
Then you should read what Cathy Dunderdale had to say about that. It might surprise you, and it might raise interesting questions in your mind about Chairman Dan's consistency when it comes to shipping resources and "giveaways"
As for the fishery question check this out: Canada's 200-mile limit: An area extending 200 nautical miles seaward from Canada's coastlines, which are under Canada's sovereign rights for the purposes of exploring and exploiting marine resources.
Yip, for that limited purpose. NOT part of Canada's territorial sea.
Also known as Canada's Exclusive Economic Zone.
Yip. In other words, NOT part of Canada's territorial sea.
You can be a stickler for precise terms all you want
I have to be; Newfoundland nationalists are EXTREMELY sloppy with their terminology.
but you know what I'm referring to - the 200 mile limit, the EEZ etc. Why on earth would Canada have ever allowed anyone to fish our waters?
The only species Canada has allowed non-Canadians to fish within 200 miles since 1977 are those allocations which Canadians have no interest or inclination in fishing.
As for silly Newfoundland Nationalists you don't need to worry about them too much. The reality is that Canada is a dysfunctional nation that neglects and abuses First Nations, French-Canadians (at least for most of the countries history), and rural people. Your beloved confederation is gonna need serious overhaul if it is going to survive and actually live up to the rosy picture it paints of itself. If not from Quebec or Newfoundland and Labrador the pressure will simply rise from all corners and things ARE going to change. In the meantime enjoy the good life in Ottawa my friend.
Have fun at the revolution.
I'd still like to know, mt.pearligan, regarding the "facts" in this question:
Why has Canada permitted the number of countries fishing on the Grand Banks, within Canada's territorial waters, to increase from 4 to 20 since Confederation?
Can you tell me... How did Canada "permit" or not permit countries to fish on the Grand Banks between 1949 and 1977 when the EEZ (which is what you really meant by the mistaken phrase "territorial waters") was asserted by Canada?
Which were the 4 countries at the time of Confederation?
Which are the 20 now?
And what is the source for these "facts"?
Hey WJM,
I've been meaning to respond to your questions (or diversions) for over a week now but I've been busy AND you really did get me with some of your questions. I definitely rattled off some figures, statements etc that I didn't back up. Anyway, here goes:
Did Harper "refuse" to respond, or are you swallowing Danny's propaganda?
Harper took TWO months to respond which is entirely too long considering the issue had already been raised in public before (please don't ask for a date or link. Danny has been mentioning this for a while). Harper should have known long before what his stance was on this issue.
How does "fallow field" do this?
Fallow field legislation helps the province obtain the best deal with the oil companies in this way: It gives them a time limit on when they can develop the field or otherwise they lose the right to do so. It puts them under pressure time-wise. Otherwise they can twiddle their thumbs until government comes begging in economic hardtimes (even with unemployment in the teens this is considered a rosy time for NL - forget what happens if there's an economic downturn in the world). With fallow field legislation government can seek the best deal without the fear of oil companies walking away from the table.
What do Russians fish inside 200 miles that NLers would rather be fishing?
PLEASE explain to me why a resource HAS to be taken advantage of. For instance, silver hake is not a species widely (or at all) sought after by Canadian fishers. SO WHAT? What does that justify? Are there trees in the process of not being cut down in Labrador right now? YES - does that mean we should have Russian logging companies doing the job? Explain your urgency in regards to exploitation of resources.
Also, I'm sure I don't need to mention the word "bycatch" to you.
Then you should read what Cathy Dunderdale had to say about that. It might surprise you, and it might raise interesting questions in your mind about Chairman Dan's consistency when it comes to shipping resources and "giveaways"
Where is Cathy Dunderdale's statements regarding this? I looked and couldn't find anything on the net at least. Please provide the incriminating evidence.
The only species Canada has allowed non-Canadians to fish within 200 miles since 1977 are those allocations which Canadians have no interest or inclination in fishing.
Again - what does that justify? If there were unexploited mineral deposits in Labrador would you support foreign companies using foreign workers to take those minerals out of Labrador without any compensation to Labrador?
Explain this Wally - why do resources ABSOLUTELY HAVE to be exploited?
I'd still like to know, mt.pearligan, regarding the "facts" in this question:
Why has Canada permitted the number of countries fishing on the Grand Banks, within Canada's territorial waters, to increase from 4 to 20 since Confederation?
Can you tell me... How did Canada "permit" or not permit countries to fish on the Grand Banks between 1949 and 1977 when the EEZ (which is what you really meant by the mistaken phrase "territorial waters") was asserted by Canada?
Which were the 4 countries at the time of Confederation?
Which are the 20 now?
And what is the source for these "facts"?
You got me here Wally. I'm definitely not as confident in my knowledge after I spent some time surfing the net for info. I did come up with some links though. Also, I want to point out that regardless of what's happening within our EEZ Canada has generally opposed bans on trawling - it definitely has been sluggish without reason. Furthermore, why hasn't Canada begun the process of claiming custodial management of the nose and tail of the grand banks? What advantage do we have in leaving it open to general exploitation?
As for your questions I have a couple of items at least:
David Anderson adressing the issue of foreign fishing WITHIN Canadian waters in a speech given in 1998:
"It is important to note that access to Canadian waters by foreign vessels has dropped significantly over the year. Catches from quotas allocated to foreign fleets in Canadian waters have dropped to insignificant levels -- from an average of 350,000 tonnes in the late 1970s and early 1980s to less than 2,000 tonnes in recent years.
But why do we still have foreign vessels fishing within our 200-mile zone?
Canada provides foreign allocations inside 200 miles for a few stocks that are surplus to Canadian harvesting needs. These allocations are given to countries that have a bilateral fisheries agreement and abide by our conservation objectives inside and outside 200 miles. Foreign allocations take nothing away from Canadian fishermen.
In fact, Canadians still leave large parts of their quotas in the water every year -- for example silver hake and squid.
Since the early 1990s, Canada has allowed some Canadian quota holders to charter foreign vessels in two Atlantic fisheries: Sub-area O turbot -- between Baffin Island and Greenland -- and Scotian Shelf silver hake."
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/media/speech/1998/19980219_e.htm
>> AS you can see here foreign fishing within Canadian waters has been ongoing since the 70's. I don't year by year figures (if you do would you please provide them) but I can imagine the allocations didn't go down to 2000 tonnes overnight once the EEZ was claimed. Obviously foreign fishing within Canadian waters was ongoing to some extent.
Also - as regards to foreigners exploiting unexploited species - THAT'S NO JUSTIFICATION. It's of no benefit to us. Forget even the justifications of D. Anderson of the fish possibly being caught by foreigners but being processed here - I believe it's our resource and we alone should harvest and process it.
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As for the 20 Nations quote I only have this. Not an original source but I'm sure she could back it up if I got in touch with her. I understand these countries are only fishing OUTSIDE of the EEZ mostly (silver hake and turbot within the EEX according to you Lib. friend David Anderson) but what is JAPAN doing there - historical rights my ass:
"Because the foreign nations (Cuba, Denmark, Greenland, France, Iceland, Japan, Korea, Norway, Russia, Ukraine, USA, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Romania, Portugal, Spain, Germany) claim they have historical rights to our fish, Ottawa allows them to manage our main fisheries around this province."
http://nl-outsidethebox.blogspot.com/2006/07/newfoundland-labradorians-guilty-till.html
As for species that are dear to our hearts such as cod I was only able to find this one article (by A. Baker again) which describes how those species can be exploited as bycatch. Just make sure you don't stay in the same spot and you can continue to harvest whatever you want as bycatch:
The law favors foreigners. For them the law says: "may not exceed 1,250 kg or 5 per cent of the catch retained onboard, whichever is the greater. If the bycatch limit is exceeded in any one haul, the vessel must immediately move a minimum of five nautical miles from the position of the previous haul. If any future haul exceeds these bycatch limits, the vessel must again immediately move a minimum of five nautical miles from any position of the previous hauls and must not return to the area for at least 48 hours."
http://www.southerngazette.ca/index.cfm?iid=1705&sid=12841
I'm curious to hear what you have to say - especially about the hypothetical Labrador forests and mineral deposits being exploited by foreign workers working for foreign companies.
Harper took TWO months to respond which is entirely too long considering the issue had already been raised in public before
Lots of issues get raised in public.
In fact, our provincial politicians have the nasty habit of raising them in public, then NOT bothering to go through the nasty formalities of, say, writing to a federal minister or applying to a federal program... and then bitching that the feds aren't doing anything.
Fallow field legislation helps the province obtain the best deal with the oil companies in this way: It gives them a time limit on when they can develop the field or otherwise they lose the right to do so. It puts them under pressure time-wise.
Only if the companies bid on, and win, parcels under this regime in the first place. Big "if". (Would fallow field apply retroactively to existing rights?)
PLEASE explain to me why a resource HAS to be taken advantage of.
I dunno. You're a Newfoundlander, maybe you can tell me: Why do you Newfoundlanders HAVE to damn Labrador's rivers?
Where is Cathy Dunderdale's statements regarding this? I looked and couldn't find anything on the net at least. Please provide the incriminating evidence.
Here:
http://bondpapers.blogspot.com/2006/09/consistency-of-inconsistency.html
Again - what does that justify? If there were unexploited mineral deposits in Labrador would you support foreign companies using foreign workers to take those minerals out of Labrador without any compensation to Labrador?
What difference is it, given that the Newfoundland government allows Canadian and Newfoundland companies to do this to Labrador without any compensation to Labrador? Does it matter that they aren't Norwegians?
I'm definitely not as confident in my knowledge after I spent some time surfing the net for info.
Good. Critical thought is a good thing.
AS you can see here foreign fishing within Canadian waters has been ongoing since the 70's.
Since the 70s?
Try, since "long before there was a Canada"!
As for the 20 Nations quote I only have this. Not an original source but I'm sure she could back it up if I got in touch with her.
Not if my past experience is anything to go on. She doesn't like to be questioned, and if you call her out on an error, or ask for sources, bad things happen.
In fact, our provincial politicians have the nasty habit of raising them in public, then NOT bothering to go through the nasty formalities of, say, writing to a federal minister or applying to a federal program... and then bitching that the feds aren't doing anything.
The issue had been raised in public and Harper knew it was coming. In this case Williams was able to break the "nasty habit" for once and he wrote to a Federal minister - WHO DID NOT RESPOND in any reasonable amount of time.
Only if the companies bid on, and win, parcels under this regime in the first place. Big "if". (Would fallow field apply retroactively to existing rights?)
I couldn't say whether or not it would apply retroactively - I'm not an expert but then again neither are you. Point is Harper won't even consider introducing it for potential future oil discoveries - he's not helping NL where he has the power to do so.
Good. Critical thought is a good thing.
Yes self-criticism is good. So is honesty. You should try both sometime.
Since the 70s?
Try, since "long before there was a Canada"!
I really like that exclamation point. What do your comments here have to do with foreign fishing within Canada's EEZ following it's establishment?
regarding Cathy Dunderdale
I'm not a huge defender of Danny Williams. Personally I find party politics and the mentality that supports it to be corrupt. Being a Liberal hack you probably don't feel the same. Yeah Danny's inconsistent - small mines that might have a secondary life through advanced mineral retrieval processes aren't being treated the same as Voisey's Bay size deposits. Doesn't want to support energy subsidies for the diverse (how many plants, fishers, companies etc etc are in the fishery? What is the fishing industry in this case?) fishing industry VS subsidizing the lone Stephenville pulp and paper plant because it was the town's last lifeline. All I know is that I want maximum results PARTICULARLY big projects - oil companies should pay big time for Hebron when declining oil prices are STILL hovering around $60 (by historical standards an incredibly high price).
What difference is it, given that the Newfoundland government allows Canadian and Newfoundland companies to do this to Labrador without any compensation to Labrador? Does it matter that they aren't Norwegians?
Look Wally, I know you're incredibly hurt over the way Labrador is treated by Newfoundland but please don't let it impair your ability to reason. You flat out avoided (another one of your diversions) my question about how why because a resource is underutilized you believe that gives someone else the right to utilize it. Either you're justifying the way Labrador is treated or you're too weak to say you don't have two rubber legs to stand on. Talking about how NL fisherman don't want to exploit certain species and therefore Canada is right to allow other countries to do so is next to mental retardation.
Me: As for the 20 Nations quote I only have this. Not an original source but I'm sure she could back it up if I got in touch with her.
You: Not if my past experience is anything to go on. She doesn't like to be questioned, and if you call her out on an error, or ask for sources, bad things happen.
You know what? Forget A. Baker. If you say her words are useless then whatever. Speaking for myself, I've stood on the docks in St. John's and seen fishing ships from all sorts of countries - Russians are common, so are Icelanders and Korean and Japanese too - and that's not nearly the end of it. Maybe they were out past the EEZ limit in your precious "international" waters but my point is that historically 3 of the countries I just mentioned have no historical basis for fishing on NL's continental shelf. In some cases such as turbot and silver hake they're even fishing within the EEZ.
The issue had been raised in public and Harper knew it was coming. In this case Williams was able to break the "nasty habit" for once and he wrote to a Federal minister - WHO DID NOT RESPOND in any reasonable amount of time.
What's Danny's record of responding to correspondence, I wonder?
I couldn't say whether or not it would apply retroactively
It wouldn't. The Great Lawyer has said as much.
I'm not an expert but then again neither are you. Point is Harper won't even consider introducing it for potential future oil discoveries - he's not helping NL where he has the power to do so.
How is it "helping NL"?
Yes self-criticism is good. So is honesty. You should try both sometime.
Physician, heal thyself.
I really like that exclamation point. What do your comments here have to do with foreign fishing within Canada's EEZ following it's establishment?
Nothing, except to point out the nasty, inconvenient little fact that those nasty furriners were fishing in those waters long before then.
All I know is that I want maximum results PARTICULARLY big projects - oil companies should pay big time for Hebron when declining oil prices are STILL hovering around $60 (by historical standards an incredibly high price).
Why "should" they be?
In a capitalist system, something is ONLY as valuable as someone is willing to pay for it.
You flat out avoided (another one of your diversions) my question about how why because a resource is underutilized you believe that gives someone else the right to utilize it.
Those are the rules we agreed to.
Either you're justifying the way Labrador is treated or you're too weak to say you don't have two rubber legs to stand on.
Labrador has no legs to stand on against the colonialist mentality of the Newfoundland government, not having any mechanism to do so except through trying, not very successfully, into shaming Newfoundland into reforming its colonialist ways.
Talking about how NL fisherman don't want to exploit certain species and therefore Canada is right to allow other countries to do so is next to mental retardation.
Mental retardation, eh?
You know what? Forget A. Baker.
No. You cited her as a source, but I want more backup, knowing her track record.
What is the source for those pseudo-facts?
Speaking for myself, I've stood on the docks in St. John's and seen fishing ships from all sorts of countries - Russians are common, so are Icelanders and Korean and Japanese too - and that's not nearly the end of it. Maybe they were out past the EEZ limit in your precious "international" waters
In which case what are you bitching about?
but my point is that historically 3 of the countries I just mentioned have no historical basis for fishing on NL's continental shelf. In some cases such as turbot and silver hake they're even fishing within the EEZ.
Under what authority?
What's wrong with them doing so?
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